and somebody last night, can't remember who it was, was making the point that lloyd denson destroyed dan quayle. it didn't make any difference but he destroyed him. so i don't know but do you guys want to take a swing at that? >> i think there are two presidential debates after that one, so i think it will be more watched by folks like us in politics whereas i think the overall electorate and i'm not downplaying the importance of the vice presidential but charlie is right, it could have -- anything could make a difference. but it would be surprising to me. >> it's like in the olympics when they had the basketball games for the bronze medal. waiting for the gold medal game, this bronze medal game but do you know what? is the only debate next week. it's going to drive some of the coverage. it will either continue the sort of the momentum that romney had after last night or it will be seen as his vice president biden does well it will be seen as this is the first step towards the obama-biden team getting its footing back. i think it's important. i think in the media world we live in now whe